Flying your canopy backwards

[Small]

Hi everyone,

I put a couple of skydives on my Troll (265 MDV @ ~0.65) over the weekend, mostly trying to fly it backwards with the risers (brakes set and released) and with the toggles. I was expecting it to be easier to do with the risers but infact the toggles seemed to have much more of an effect. So I have a few questions...

Why does a canopy fly backwards? Is it because once it's stalled and falling straight down the relative wind hits the bottom skin and gets deflected forwards - therefore pushing the canopy backwards?

Why did the toggles have such a different effect to the risers? The picture I have in my head is of the toggles pulling down the tail and sort of blocking the air from being deflected backwards, whereas using the risers won't do that.

Once I'd plucked up the courage to actually hold the canopy in a stall (hey, it's scary!) it was great fun :-).

Thanks,

Gus

[jason]

>Why did the toggles have such a different effect to the
>risers? The picture I have in my head is of the toggles
>pulling down the tail and sort of blocking the air from being
>deflected backwards, whereas using the risers won't do that.

That's the general idea, I imagine. Pulling down the toggles puts a bunch of fabric at an angle where it slopes up toward the front of the canopy (ie, deflects air forward). Pulling the rear risers down actually just breaks the canopy down the middle -- everything between the A's and B's, and everything rear of the C's, still does exactly what it was doing before.

[JOMAN]

It would depend if you want to fly your canopy backward with the canopy inflated or stalled. If you are practicing for a base jump i would not recomend flying it stalled. Ether way. if flying it inflated backword you are using the speed of the wind to fly the canopy backwards. You are slowing the canopy,s forward speed slower then the speed of the wind thus making the canopy fly backword. If you do this you should know the canopy stall point. You can also feel the stall point, the canopy will begin to rock backward. When flying backward in a stall there is no air in the canopy and the reason The canopy flys backward is you got it the wind deflects of the bottom skin of the canopy making it go backwards. The reason it is easier with the toggales then with the risers is because. When you use the risers you are not pulling down on the tail as much as you are changing the angle of the canopy. The canopy more shifts as a hole. When you are using the stiring toggels you are pulling down on only the tail portion of the canopy this gives the canopy more of a cup shape and gives the air more direction. Hope this helps. jump low pull low C-Ya

[cvfd1399]

I think it would work really well with a canopy that has air locks. That way you could fly farther backwards before the canopy colapses from lack of ram air.

[Small]

Yes, I meant flying it backwards in a stall rather than being blown backwards across the ground. I figure it's a useful thing to know how to do - if it's a choice between that or an object strike.
Having never jumped anything other than my Troll I don't whether it's the MDVs that do it but it never even came close to collapsing. I'd love to try it with someone else flying close by so I could gauge the fallrate whilst flying backwards in a stall, I certainly heard the wind pick up!

Gus

[JOMAN]

Dude Your fall rate would be such that you would probably at lest break your leggs. You should mabe work on a stall turn. This is when you start to just stall the canopy. When the canopy starts to rock Backward. As it doe's this you let up the opposite toggal of the direction that you want to turn in. This doe's two things it starts you flying away from the object and also turns you away from the object. After you turn the canopy 180 or however far you need to turn. You then can go to about 1/2 to 3/4 breaks and this will limit the amount of surge you get out of the canopy. I have been facing an object a few times and have used this quit successfully on more then one occasion. I have seen more then one person break there back landing a stalled canopy. I would also recommend that you try this manuver up high out of a plan before trying it when you need it.

[jason]

>Dude Your fall rate would be such that you would probably at lest break your leggs.

I don't want to endorse stalling a canopy into the ground for recreational purposes, and I should point out that a good deal of both armour and luck was involved in my own experience... However, earlier this year I took a canopy into the ground with a tailgate hangup. To say it was stalled would be a substantial understatement. I walked away unhurt.

Others, I'm sure, have similar stories. Landing a stalled canopy sucks, but then so does an object strike. The stall turn, of course, would also be a valuable tool to master.

[freeradical]

I have got this one all figured out... just set up your risers so they are backwards on the ring... that way youare flying switch and it will actually work instead of stalling and all that technical stuff you guys are trying to master...

Why would you want to learn to fly backwards in a stall in control?? why not just turn away from the object and if a 180 is totally not handle able etiehr throw out yer on heading opening or do no jump.

If you do not have time to turn away, you likely do not have time to induce a stall.

[imported_Tom Aiello]

>If you do not have time to turn away, you likely do not have time to induce a stall.

If I'm understanding this correctly I'm with JT here.

Learning to fly backward with toggles is a relatively pointless skill for BASE. If you have time to (a) grab your toggles, pull them all the way down to stall, and slide away from the wall, then you have time to (b) grab your toggles and pull on one of them to turn away from the wall.

The only time you're going to need to use a partially deflated/stalled backward slide is when you don't have enough time to initiate effective toggle input. In that case, you're going to have to perform the maneuver on risers.

I think Joman is on the right track with the "stalled turn" (although I've never called it that).

In general, my "imminent wall strike avoidance procedure" is the one I learned from Dwain:

1) Grab both rear risers and stop moving forward, stalling the canopy.

2) Let one rear riser up and cross that hand over to grab the opposite front riser.


--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[Small]

FWIW I think you're probably right. One of the things I noticed was how long it took to (1) slow the canopy right down, (2) to stall it and (3) to actually start flying backwards. I hadn't thought of it in terms of "if you have time to stall you have time to turn" but yeah, that makes sense.

Gus