Sorcerer

[imported_Tom Aiello]

I'd like to start a discussion about the merits of the Sorcerer (Vertigo's two canopy BASE rig). I've never made a jump on a Sorcerer, and have only gotten to inspect one on two occasions. It seems like the Sorcerer is not terribly popular. Anyone have any idea why?

Here are a few of my thoughts.

Positives:
1) Possibility of cutting away a malfunctioning canopy.
2) Possibility of really neat trick jumps (BASE "fun aways").

Negatives:
1) Extra weight to carry on approaches and climbs.
2) Extra cost for the rig and extra canopy.
3) May be tempted to cut away too low, rather than keep a partially malfunctioning canopy, resulting in death, where injury might otherwise result.

My gut feeling is that we are confident enough in the single parachute system (especially with the advent of tailgates and line release toggles), that no one really wants to go to the extra cost (and weight) of the extra canopy. I know that there have been reported saves on the Sorcerer, but I believe they were all before the advent of some modern technology (tailgates, super toggles).

Anyone have any other ideas on this?

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[3ringheathen]

My first three jumps were on a Sorcerer.
It's a decent rig, but it seems to me that the pack tray is more prone to off heading openings, but that's purely speculation on my part.
I'm also a bit concerned that it's more complicated, and I'm a big fan of keeping it simple in base.

I like the possiblity of jumping an object, landing on a high ledge, stuffing the 1st canopy into a bag, strapping it between your legs or under the back pad and jumping again with the second canopy. I know of at least one object in my backyard in which that might be possible, but I haven't carefully evaluated it since I don't have a Sorcerer anymore. (Mine was rented)

In general, I'd hazard a guess that the market has already spoken. I bet they don't sell too many Sorcerers anymore.
-Josh

[guest]

For what it's worth . . .

#28 Xaver Bongard, April 15, 1994

http://juliabell.home.att.net/

Nick

[Tokemon]

my opinion is it that a sorcerer is a great TOY.
not something for going low, under 500 foot jumps, but a great toy to play with at higher altitudes. I was able to put 3 jumps on mine before it got stolen. two were from 1200 feet, 7 second delays, and the other was from 800 feet, 5 second. I had it packed, and ready to jump off the perrine, but decided not to. Based on the uncertainty around Brian Scout's incident, and the altitude and setup I had.
It was an excellently designed rig for a reserve option off big walls, towers, buildings (Petronas), and other 800+ foot objects. It was intended for near terminal jumps, and I feel (no low jumps to compare to) that it performs great in that arena.
the reserve I never got to use, but was glad to have it just in case. I jumped, and deployed with adequate height to allow a cutaway/reserve deployment.
It helped me with more EXIT point confidence when doing my "psycho-slam" 10 minute pack jobs. thinking I have other options than ride my "line-overs" into the ground spinning. I had a toggle hang up on jump #2 with it, and was a slow left turn. I thought of cutting it away, but attempted one more time to unsnap the toggle. It was nice to have TWO options to fix a problem.
When I have enough cash to buy a new rig, it will be a reactor/fox w/Vtec combo. This is what the majority of my jumps are on, including a hairy 215 foot cliff, and a 200 foot anntena.
and Marty left such a bad taste in my mouth I will NEVER buy a single product from CR as long as he is there. Sorry Adam, but I do remember when people treat me like doo-doo.
It was a fun toy to have, and I hope to have one again someday.
until then, it's time to find a job and make some money.
Hope this helps Tom.
Thomas
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

[guest]

While I think that the efforts put into the design of the Sorcerer are worthy of merrit, I do not think that cutting away from a line over or other spinning malfunction (these are the typical mals) will in any way increase the chances of actually walking away unscathed.
I admit that the times that I have seen a properly opened and flying main cut away from a Sorcerer, the reverve did deploy very quickly. Good canopy to good canopy takes no time at all. The direct reserve is static line system is extreamly quick and effective however the speed and effectivness of the system can also be it's failing.
I think that most would agree that if we fail to exit and or deploy in a stable position, our chances of having an on heading opening are slim at best. I have seen (proir to the tail gait), line over malfunctions that could be argued were caused by by deploying in extremely unstable positions. Hear in lies the problem.
If you cut away from a spinning malfunction and the the static line system works as designned, I think it can be argued that your situation might not improve all that much. You will be lucky to open facing away from the object and chances are that you will find your self spinning, just as you did under you main. It should also be mentioned that cutting away will also reduce your altitude and the precious time needed to work the problem. Lets not froget a few other potential problems.
Did you remember and or bother to remove your slider from the reserve when you returned home from whatever super tall object you jumped last? If not and and your jumping something kinda low (300'-800') is cutting away really an option? Then of course we have the other side of that coin. Did you remember to install a slider on yor reverve for that super tall object your about to jump. If not is deploying the reserve slider off while near or at terminal speeds really an opotion?
I believe that the success of B.A.S.E. jumpers around the world can be directly attributed to the simplicity of the systems we use. The Sorcereer is any thing but simple.
A Sorcerer in the hands of some one who really know what they are doing, is ok, but how many BASE jumper really know or want to know how to pack a reserve. I my self am a rigger. Countless times have BASE jumpers and skydivers brought their gear to me and asked me to make their gear smarter than they are.
carefull we don't get crushed under the weight of our own technology.
Sorry for being so long winded

[Tokemon]

first thing I did was to put the slider on the reserve, predicting a high speed malfunction if any.
and, a second advantage I see (in my dimented mind) is that if I climb up Kristin (1200 footer), and decide the winds are high, I would maybe (MAYBE) jump the reserve seeing as it is smaller, and would give me more forward speed into the wind.
of course, a drawback to jumping the reserve straight is chasing the freebag. oh well, better than landing in trees.
YES INDEED, very true about a sorcerer being dangerous in the wrong hands. but then again, so is a single canopy BASE rig. and then again, so is a gun.
what's the saying???
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
Same with a BASE rig.
in the wrong hands, a person might as well play russian roullette.
my .02
Thomas :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

[guest]

Hey, let us know when you get the new rig so we can steal that one too. Could you make it with a lot of blue. I like blue. And Black. I like black too. A zp topskin would be wicked please. Bitchin...

[Tokemon]

pretty funny for an anonymous COWARD!
the black and blue might match my eyes, after I get punched by the COWARDS for being a BASE jumper named Thomas.
Go to bed you little 12 year old punk.
Thomas

"A black eye? Hell, sounds good. I'll be waiting with bells on!"---Thomas :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :* :*
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) smoking something better than left handed cigarettes now days! }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }> }>

[guest]

If wind is to high velocity to jump I dout smaller canopy make difference.

I dont understand you? Must have small brain?

You an idiet dude!

[guest]

I agree 100% with BASE 390. Although he did fail to mention another important factor...

Opeing low is one of the main attractions of BASE jumping ( I think you would agree with this - ehh Tom?). I love to initiate deployment on terminal jumps at less than 300 feet above the ground. If I had a malfunction at that AGL, I seriously doubt I would be able to successfully deploy my reserve if jumping a Sorcerer. Therefore, if jumping a Sorcerer or any system with a reserve, you have to account for that extra height needed. Of course the Sorcerer opens quickly, but still needs a bit of extra altitude.

One question I have about he Sorcerer is the slider up/off dilema. If jumping terminal, would you have the slider up or off? I would think you would want it off due to the slowing down experiened from the main - slow enough to now have no slider.

While mentioning the low opening subject, one of the main problems with opening low that I have seen this summer is that people are not taking into account the 180 factor. If you open low, you really should take into account the 180 factor - unless the 180 factor is not an issue - ie. big towers with open grassy field LZs.

BSBD,

JJ
:-)

[guest]

I own a sorcerer and have jumped in slider up and down configurations many times. A good friend of mine has almost 500 base jumps on one. Mostly slider down. The big thing about a sorcerer is that the pack tray is pretty small. Instead of folding your canopy 3 times, you have to fold it 4 times. the last fold is usually a little sloppy, and material sometimes sticks out of the container like a crew rig. But , hey....I've had 100 percent on heading openings with it. I think its real value is as a teaching tool. I did my first couple Birdman jumps with it, and it really gave me warm fuzzys. My first couple big walls and the cave as well. I pack the reserve no slider as I figure you would have to be a freagin retard to not be able to find your P.C. .


On another note, Drew ,Michelle , and I are down in Chile .... Snowboarding.... except its a complete white out and we are waiting for the snow to stop falling. I figure at least a foot has fallen in the last 5 hours, we are waiting to get in a chopper to go look for sites..... as this place has more big walls than you can shake a stick at......


We ll check in later......



Basehound and Friends
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

[Tokemon]

>>I pack the reserve no slider as I figure you would have to be a freagin retard to not be able to find your P.C. .<<

Sorry, but are you referring to Jan Davis? I think she would still be alive if she were jumping her "A" gear, or gear that had a reserve. And ONLY if it was packed slider up. slider off might have killed her as well, with a snap for an opening. I had my reserve packed slider up so that if a situation ever occured, I was ready for it. and with a cut away, the opening distance is increased, but I also factored that into pull time. From Kristin (1200 footer) I was pulling around 450 above the ground.
and some say the main attraction of BASE is pulling LOW???? Not to me at least. To me, I LOVE BASE jumping because it allows me to jump off so many more objects than skydiving ever would. If I had a 300 foot tower, and an 800 foot tower to choose from, I chose (past tense) the 800 footer, and pulled a llittle higher than 300 feet above the ground. I tell my friend this, as he chooses the 300 footer. BASE (for me) is about maximizing free fall. and I know that by pulling at 450 feet off a 1200 footer, I am waisting about 1-3 more seconds of free fall. I also like to have enough time to fly to a clear landing area.
when called an idiot for jumping a smaller chute in higher winds, I was not referring to the situation where winds are flat out TOO HIGH to jump at all. I'm saying that if I had 20-30 mph ground winds, I might opt to take a swift 176 instead of a dragon 235 so that I could PENETRATE into the wind more. I had something close to this, where I found myself on the front dive loops to gain forward speed to clear the trees with my dragon 235. my swift would have had no problems punching into the wind.
but then again, many of you jumpers disagree with what I do, and how I do it.
That, my colorado critics, is why I jump alone. I don't mind smoking in front of people that I am with, cause if they mind, they either don't see it, or aren't with me. I LOVE SOLO JUMPS. I tell noone where I am going, and I rely totally on myself to make all the correct decisions to return home safely. Everyone should make one solo jump, where they just venture out one night, with no back up plan other than "do everything correct", and this may give you some new perspective.
What good is ground crew if I'm dead?
and I don't plan to ever wake up in the hospital again. and my parents will never get that dreaded phone call from the hospital or police. I have taken steps to correct all these situations. Read: SOLO JUMPS! I am working out a black magic system, in which......never mind. email if you want to hear more. cidmauch@hotmail.com

Peace out,
Thomas :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

[guest]

Do a solo jump for me and forget your rig - please...

[guest]

Thomas,

Your a ##### idiot. To clue you in here, a 7 cell 176 is not going to penetrate into a 30mph wind. Your still going to go straight down or most likely, back up. Go to any drop zone and watch a Stilletto 120 in 30 mph winds. I doubt that you will see much penetration.

You are so off the ##### mark on what it takes to be a BASE jumper. I find it hard to believe that anyone in the right mind trained you to BASE jump.

Your a danger to those around you and YOU ARE AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN. That is why you jump solo most of the time, not because of the spiritual mantra that you preach.

I've seen very knowledgeable jumpers try to give you friendly advice (in person not on this board) and it doesn't even penetrate into your little brain for one second.

Folks, beware if you choose to jump with this guy. He's going to bounce from idiocy. I hate to say this, but I call t as I see it.

Chris

[guest]

Good call. I agree. This guy is already dead and doesnt know it. What number on "the list" will he be? Any bets? On the bright side we wont have to see his posts come up any more. Marty, next time finish the job, will ya?