Technical Question Only: 1 vs. 2

[bps]

This thread is about a technical question.

*** IT IS NOT A BR vs. CR THREAD ***

*** Please save the ridiculous, childish comments for the useless thread below. ***

Here's my question and I would like some honest technical feedback...

Why do some people feel that a one-pin system may be better than a two-pin system?

I honestly cannot see why it would be, but maybe someone with more knowledge than I can shed some light on this matter.

My opinion is that the security of having two pins would be superior to that of a single pin, but once again, my knowledge in this area is slim to none. (no pun intended for the basero)

Your thoughts please...

Bryan

[guest]

Hi Bryan,
That is a good question and one worth answering for everyone's information.

In 1990 I built a two pin BASE rig. Effectively a pin closed Perigee (classic). It was, and is, in use as a pilot emergency rig. Not legal I know, but that was a different era. In early 1997 we built a one pin BASE rig. Totally different in apearance and function. The thinking at the time was that skydiving had gone from two (or more)pins to one pin so it must be better - less loops, grommets etc. What we found with this rig was infact a number of undesirable traits that could all be addressed by introducing a second pin.
Also, we examined why single pin reserve containers were more popular in skydiving. It was related largly to the fact that 2-pin designs used steel cables with multiple pins. This forced both pins to move simultaneously. We were able to avoid this with the use of a flexible webbing bridle. Additionally, as skydiving rigs got smaller and smaller the extra closing surface and security wasn't required because the whole package was the size of small book. Conversly, a BASE rig holding just one parachute is bigger than many conventional skydiving rigs and could benefit from the greater closing area.


A single pin rig was by default "fatter" something that I personally don't beleive is appropriate in a single parachute container mostly because I did a lot of tower jumping and had to deal w/ confined spaces. It also had a very wide variance in pin tension when it was placed on the body. This was a result of all the adddtional tension being focused on a single point. Moderate pin tension on the ground could become dangerously high in the air.

More importantly, a sigle pin means a single grommet and when the full length of a long flap narrows to that grommet and/or it's reinforcing plastic you have a senario that is ripe for catching (and holding) a line. This has killed many a skydiver back in the early 80's when free stowing was "cool". Interestingly, this month's Parachutist magazine has revisted this scenario in an article that addresses the recent grommet related incidents in skydiving.

Basically, I didn't like the rig and it never saw production.

Ultimately, I designed a rig from the ground up to use two pins. There are no shared parts (except leg pads) between the first Perigee Pro (1997) and the earlier Velcro closed perigees.

What we gained by going to 2-pins: more consistent pin tensions, lower overall pin tension, reduced line entanglement potential, a flatter profile and safer use if people (against recomendation) jump handheld. Safer because if a pin is accidentally pulled the rig will remain closed.

The Perigee Pro has a lot of features beyond what I mentioned above that I beieve really enhance it's function and safety but this isn't the forum for that.

Suffice it to say, since it's introduction, the Perigee Pro has been copied by one European mfg and the two pin approach has also been adopted by two US mfgs.


Hope that sheds some light.


Adam Filippino
Consolidated Rigging, Inc.
http://www.crmojo.com

[Yuri]

Yo !

>Suffice it to say, since it's introduction, the >Perigee Pro has been copied by one European mfg >and the two pin approach has also been adopted by
>two US mfgs.

You can add a couple more new designs (Russian and South African mfgs) to prove the superiority of the 2-pin concept.

Nevertheless one has to admit: a single-pin rig, Cruislite and 28" PC will usually work fine... ;)

bsbd!

Yuri.

[guest]

Bryan:

I've noticed that the pin tension on my Prism is much more variable than the pin tension on the two 2 pin rigs I've had a chance to look at closed (usually when I was checking the gear at an exit point, on the jumper's back). Both of those rigs were Perigee Pros (yours and Adam H.'s), so I'm not sure about other two pin rigs.

Basically, I've found that (especially) with an even mildly sloppy pack job, the two pin rig seems to maintain a more consistent pin tension. With a very careful pack job, the one pin rig seems to be fine. But then, I don't always have time for a very careful pack job...

On that note, Adam F. will be pleased (or perhaps not) to hear that another US manufacturer will be introducing a two pin rig shortly. Yesterday, BR confirmed for me the rumor that they will be offering a two pin rig (currently accepting orders) in the immediate future.

BR's new Vertex seems to show that jumpers in the field are demanding a two pin rig. And I expect that my next rig will be a two pin setup as well.

--Tom Aiello

[bps]

Adam and Tom -

Thanks for taking the time to address this question - I think it's useful info for the board.

From my *limited* experience with pin-rigs, I am very happy with the 2-pin design. It appears to give a consistent closing pressure to the container and I like the profile that results from using two pins.

And for owners of a one-pin system, contact me any time and we'll share a jump and a beer. ;-)

Happy jumps to all,

Bryan

[guest]

Are you guys primarily talking about the big wall theatre, or are you using your pin rigs on your spur of the moment WEdnesday night 500'er?? What's the range of the two pin rig in America's typical base setting??
Thanx
386

[guest]

Right now I use my Prism for everything. Big walls, 300 dams, 500' wednesday nighters, etc.

I typically use velcro for static line jumps, but pins for everything else (pins on a static line just make me nervous for no particular reason).

When I get a two pin rig (soon, I think), it'll probably get used for everything, too.

--Tom Aiello

[bps]

Hi 386 -

Alot of people in the US, or at least Cali, are using their pin rigs at all types of heights. Like Tom said, go and throws to big walls.

I've jumped quite a bit with Tom. He uses a one-pin rig on alot of his jumps...and I just got a 2-pin rig and am just starting to take it off several different objects.

What's your thoughts on the benefits of 1 pin vs. 2? Pro's and con's for both?

Thanks,

Bryan

[web]

well, i just got in from another solo 3.5sec, mesh-up, 42"pc-in-hand screamer from 590ft up my favorite tower. i love my P-pro/mojo!

[bps]

Yeehaa!

:-)

[guest]

Which ever pin system you choose Basic Research will have them both.

[Yuri]

Yo!

My Wizard has been off 190'..5700' range. It is
meant to be used at any altitude, stowed or hend-held, and pretty much makes all velcro rigs i own obsolete.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[guest]

Yuri, I believe you meant Warlock , right ?

Pins rule for all off of student status...
Get with the times everyone

Mario
Vertigo Base Outfitters

[guest]

Hi Mario, how are you? Hope to get out to Moab to see your new set up soon.

All the questions on pinned rigs brings up one from me. The Sorcerer, I remember seeing Mark bail from 1,000' /- and then chopping the main and going to reserve. I think it was Yuri that chopped from 100' (also remember he said he would not do that twice as this might be a bit low to chop). I understand that with the two-canopy system that you are not able to carry the largest mains (230 ?). But, what would be the other draw backs to this system or advancements in single canopy systems that would make the dual canopy system a second option in rig choice.

I understand the importance of "Do it right the first time" but as unpopular or naive as this statement may be, it would be nice to have a backup should all else go wrong. I am BIG on planning so maybe it is just the unexpected, unpredictable errors happening in daily life that makes me think, "Backup would be nice".

Bazil

[guest]

Hello Bazil
1st I will mention that Marta is the Sorcerer expert, I deal with the "do right the 1st time" containers.(Wizard & Warlock )

Here are some facts, The Sorcerer is custom made to fit ANY size main & reserve,we make a Dagger 277 and you can get a Sorcerer with both of those in there.Obviously it's gonna be huge,but if you are heavy, that's what you need.

Test cut-aways have been done from 185' and slider-up on the reserve, it left plenty of time to unstow and flare for a nice landing.This was from a perfectly opened main, a mal-functionning main will vary in speed so the outcome will also vary.

If the slider is down on the reserve, we calculated from the videos that 46' is all you need, so technically, you could chop at 50' and live...

If you get a Sorcerer and always hum it, well you are jumping the wrong container.If you plan your jump to leave some room to think and chop,a Sorcerer is a good idea.

One canopy or two, it's all good
Just get what makes you feel good at the exit point :-)

Mario
www.vertigobase.com for more info on the Sorcerer