Break settings on a Flick for example.

[r2hubert]

I always hear every one said you should customized your break settings, and I'm sure every one should.
But then I read that we don't need two break settings with the Flick (Deep, Shalow).
I understand that the Flick was standard with 5th control line (not any more apparently), so that the forward speed on openning is already reduced by using more surface of the tail.
Now let take the example of a vented/valved canopy with 5th control line (Flick or other).
Why would you only have one settings instead of two Deep and Shalow?

Another side question will be is it reasonable to say that I could have a deeper break setting if my canopy is vented? And then reduce my forward speed on openning...

-- Renaud

[Tom Aiello]

Why would you only have one settings instead of two Deep and Shalow?

You shouldn't. I am aware the the manufacturer (BR) recommends using only the factory (one) brake setting. I strongly disagree.

You ought to customize (at a minimum) a slider down deep brake setting for every canopy/jumper combination. This setting should be the deepest it can be and still give response to rear riser input (so the canopy turns, instead of just stalling out).

Since this customized deep brake setting will always be too deep to use with a slider, you will also need a slider up setting. It's best to customize this as well, but if you're lazy, you could just use the factory setting.

Another side question will be is it reasonable to say that I could have a deeper break setting if my canopy is vented?

Not in my experience. I've actually found that the best DBS for a vented canopy is often slightly shallower than the best DBS for the same canopy without vents. I've only had the opportunity to test two canopies this way (an Ace/BJ and FOX/FOX Vtec) so your results may vary. But, in my experience, the best deep brake setting for the unvented version of the canopy resulted in slight backsurge (in zero wind) once the vents were added. I suspect that this is going to be a characteristic of the individual canopy, and I haven't tried this with a Flik/Flik Vtec, so you're going to have to experiment for yourself.

Be aware that the proper (customized) DBS in zero wind will be slightly too deep when you add a tail wind (since the deployment "sees" the tailwind, and begins to stall), so you'll either want to customize a "tailwind" DBS, or just (if lazy) use the shallow (slider up) setting when jumping tailwind objects like antennas and bridges.

Hope that helps.

[BASE_689]

> You ought to customize (at a minimum) a slider down deep brake setting for every canopy/jumper combination. This setting should be the deepest it can be and still give response to rear riser input (so the canopy turns, instead of just stalling out).
I also agree with you, Tom.
Could you explain here what the right rpocedure for assessing the DBS is, please?
I tell you my story that happened to a student of mine.
This guy is 73 kg - 161 lb naked and (let's say) 83 kg - 183 lb is full configuration ready-to-jump with BASE equipment. He bought a Vertex 2 with a Flik 266+Vtec+valves, so ending to have 0.69 lb/ft² as specific load on his canopy.
My student skydived (with BASE packings) his Flik 266 into a Javelin, and in one of these skydives I instructed him to do the following: "Once opened, once flying properly, grab the two toggles in your left hand, pull down slowly your left hand (keeping it on the central line of your body) until you stall, then release (=rise) your left hand until you see that you are starting to fly well again: stop there and with your right hand do a mark with a pen in correspondence of keeper ring on riser."
He did the above. We sent his Flik 266 to a capable rigger that sewed the Deep Brake Settings (actually, this rigger set the DBS slightly shallower than the pen mark). Note: DBS came to be about 10 cm - 4" shallower than brake settings sewed by BR on manufacturing.
When right time came, we went to a suitable object for a first BASE jump (an S to be jumped slider off), there was very slight front wind, I did him a PCA, the opening was very clean and on heading. It took him few (=several!!!) seconds to unstow (..understandable-being-it-his-first-BASE-jump-ever...) the brakes and start flying. Between opening and brakes unstowing, the canopy flew slightly backwards: it was in a stall or very, very close to a stall. As soon as he unstowed the brakes, he started flying "quite fast".
To make short a long story: notwithstanding all the procedure (I thought "correct" procedure) for evaluating the DBS, in the end his parachute came with a DBS that was (=is) too deep. My student probably jumped the DBS just another time, and then in all his jumps (slider off and slider up) he jumped with original BR brake setting.
When he jumps slider off, he doesn't look to be "fast".
Could be that what was determined as proper "DBS" was actually wrong because he jumped in a configuration (=skydive with more weight because of the weight of the reserve (more weight with respect to BASE jump configuration o single canopy)) that was NOT the one of real BASE jumping? Did he determine his DBS with too much weight under canopy with respect the real BASE jump situation?
So, finally, my question: what is the right procedure to determine your proper Deep Brake Setting?
Please, consider that we DO NOT have a high enough object to be jumped slider off and where you can play to find your stall point and mark lines with a pen.

[Tom Aiello]

I suspect that you may have found a DBS setting that would work for an unvented version of that canopy, but which is too deep for the vented version, resulting in an opening backsurge. I've seen this on two occasions on a canopy, which, after proper deep brake setting with no vents, had vents (valves in one case) installed.

The next thing you ought to try after having the DBS installed as you described (and assuming you haven't got a good object to test this from):

Use the DBS and take the canopy for a skydive. You'll likely have to pump the risers to get the slider to descend, but once it has descended, the canopy ought to be flying just above the stall point. Now try a rear riser turn. If the canopy stalls, the setting is too deep. If the canopy turns, I'd say the DBS is correct.

If this DBS is still giving you backsurge on opening, I'd recommend lightening it (perhaps halfway between the factory point and the one you found?) and trying again off the span.

I realize that not everyone has the luxury (which I do) of being able to test brake settings repeatedly off a nice, cushy, legal span. I wish I had a better "sure fire" way to find DBS than trial and error, but so far that's all I have found that will certainly find the correct setting eventually.

[JaapSuter]

You shouldn't. I am aware the the manufacturer (BR) recommends using only the factory (one) brake setting. I strongly disagree.

Coincidentally, I just happened to contact BR about this recommendation this week. Here's my original email from four days ago:

I was reading the BR Owners Manual, and in section 2.4 I noticed the
following comment:

"FOX canopies with Vtec are recommended to use only the #1 (shallow) brake
setting."

I'm curious what the intention here is. Is BR argueing to use the shallow
setting on slider-off jumps? I might be missing some context here, but I've
always been taught to tweak my own brake settings, have at least two, and
have a significantly deeper setting for slider-off compared to slider-on.

To which Todd Shoebotham replied:

This was a serious concern with Vtec before we introduced the Vtec with
Covers. The deep brake setting with a non-covered Vtec did struggle to
inflate properly. Once the covers were introduced the issue was resolved.
What is in the OM is a left over and a more conservative approach.

To which I replied:

> This was a serious concern with Vtec before we introduced the Vtec with
> Covers. The deep brake setting with a non-covered Vtec did struggle
> to inflate properly.

I am assuming that is because the vent would allow the air to leave the
canopy just as easily as it got in there, because initially the vents were
open in both directions? Then later you added covers on the inside,
effectively turning the vents into a one-way valve system?

Is that correct?

> Once the covers were introduced the issue was resolved.
> What is in the OM is a left over and a more conservative approach.

Does it make sense to change this comment? In my humble
opinion, the comment could be removed all together. Isn't the
general advice that people need to tune their own brake settings?

To which Karen Thomas replied with:

We have to rewrite our Owner's Manual, that is true enough! It is
an undertaking that will be accomplished as we get the merge [Vertigo
and BR into Apex, ed.] more settled.

They still don't give a firm recommendation either way it seems.

Cheers,

Jaap

[Faber]

i costumiced my brake settings on my Fox 265 vtec and Flik 266vtec,i did both off a 400ft A(be aware that my interest is in the low envioment so i never really tryed my settings slider up(yeah my Flik hasnt got 1 slider up yet ,and my Fox only has 1 if i rember correct,which the previus owner had).I did many jumps at difrent both shallower and deeper brake settings before i found theese to fit ME
Anyway,i have 3 different brake settings at both my canopyes
Im 80kg whith clothes no gear.

Fox vtec:
deepest setting is aprox 10cm(4inch?)above the original bake that came whith it)
Middel setting is aprox 5 cm(2inch?)below the deepest setting
Shallow brake is what it came whith.(which ill use if i one day takes it slider up)

Flik vtec:
Deepest setting is aprox 5cm above the original setting(why i dunno,i had thourght it were closer to 10cm as my Fox)
Middel brake is the original brake
shallow brake aprox 5cm below the original brake(same storry as on my Fox)

I found it weired that there were that much different on my Flik and my Fox,anyway my Flik has 5th line my Fox dosnt.....

the reasson that i have 3 settings is that i do belive that a deep brake is good at most slider off jumps,however Low jumps i rather have a canopy that flyes more so that i can flare on rearrissers instead of toogles if needed.

My most shallow brake settings is to the day i put on a slider,if its too shallow on my Flik i cant say,but do belive it might fit for my Fox.. ,one day ill tell if i were right or wrong...

Note: the above is how im doing it/operating my canopyes.were all diffrent people both weight and the way we want it to fly as it opens,so DONT use the above as a manual to brake settings(nor even a guide),please test it your self before making a desission if its the right setting for YOU...Hey you even feel abit like a test jumper some times

[BASE_689]

> I suspect that you may have found a DBS setting that would work for an unvented version of that canopy, but which is too deep for the vented version, resulting in an opening backsurge.....
None of the above. #984's Flik 266 came out from BR already with Vtec+valves, so he skydived it in the Vtec+valves configuration, he determined his DBS WITH the Vtec+valves configuration. Moreover, the rigger that did the job of sewing the DBS sewed them slightly shallower than the pen mark #984 did.
Granted the above, there is no way that, after what I saw (backward flying with very minimal front wind), I am going to tell my student to use the DBS jumping off a solid object, and as well I do not see any point in telling him to jump that DBS even off a bridge. That DBS is simply too deep.
If we have time (and money) to spare, possibly we could get sewed a third brake settings just in the middkle of the existing two.

> Use the DBS and take the canopy for a skydive....
We could try that. If done, we will let you know.

[r2hubert]

Since this customized deep brake setting will always be too deep to use with a slider, you will also need a slider up setting. It's best to customize this as well, but if you're lazy, you could just use the factory setting.

So how do you determine when it's too deep for a slider up setting?
Let's say I'm skydiving with it and customized by DBS like you describe.
First like Base689 said the weight will be different (reserve weight), but let's say it doens't matter.
If I jump my DBS (Skydiving) slider up it will open in a stall?
How do I determine my DBS for slider up then? Is there a rules of thumb or just keep jumping and tweek it until it doens't open in a stall anymore? Then there is the tail wind issue again I believe...

[Faber]

Andrea i can only recomend to do so..(getting the extra loop on the brake line),it aint expencive at all(MAX 10-15EURO i would say,i got mine for free...any rigger can do it).

Bear in mind as you speak about a Flik it has a 5th line(brake)which makes the brake more powerfull(ie youll need it shalower than on a regular 4brake line canopy).
Also,try messure the 5th line,make sure its longer than the 4 others(if not its a mistake,and it dont work so good i can tell from my Fox,its easy to stale).

r2hubert,yes opening your canopy in too deep brakes(no matter slider up or down)will result in a stall.

Sorry i cant help on the slider up settings

[Tom Aiello]

...Flik 266 came out from BR already with Vtec+valves, so he skydived it in the Vtec+valves configuration, he determined his DBS WITH the Vtec+valves configuration.

The (old) "pull the toggles down to stall and mark" technique finds the DBS for an unvented canopy. Using this technique on a vented canopy can find a brake setting which results in opening backsurge (i.e. is too deep for the vented canopy during opening). If you sew the valves shut (effectively "unvent" the canopy) you'll find the backsurge goes away.

[Tom Aiello]

So how do you determine when it's too deep for a slider up setting?

The surest way is to take it for a skydive with a slider.

If I jump my DBS (Skydiving) slider up it will open in a stall?

Yes. The slider grommets will artificially "shorten" the line length while the slider is up. This will change the trim of the canopy during the initial inflation (by pulling the tail further down) and result in a stall during deployment. You can usually fix this by pumping the risers to drive the slider down.

How do I determine my DBS for slider up then? Is there a rules of thumb or just keep jumping and tweek it until it doens't open in a stall anymore? Then there is the tail wind issue again I believe...

I'd recommend doing a "trial and error" brake setting on multiple skydives.

If you are making slider up jumps in a tailwind, you can probably afford to go with a shallower setting (because you'll have time to move away from the object before deployment, and a tailwind to keep you from striking).

[baseninja]

I have a couple questions about factory brake and toggle settings, and adjustments to them. I recently got a new canopy, from a manufacturer that has two settings and does not come finger trapped for the toggles. From where the mark was placed for the default toggle setting, I have had to move it about 6 inches. Is it reasonable to assume that the brake settings are also off by about the same distance?

It might get complicated since two jumpers with the same weight will have the same brake settings, but the one with longer arms will have a different toggle setting than the other…

[Tom Aiello]

the reasson that i have 3 settings is that i do belive that a deep brake is good at most slider off jumps,however Low jumps i rather have a canopy that flyes more so that i can flare on rearrissers instead of toogles if needed.

This is a very good point that bears repeating. If you are reading this thread and missed it, read it again.

On very low jumps, you may want to use a shallower setting so that your canopy will be flying sooner, which is especially important if you have to do a riser flare and PLF.

[Tom Aiello]

From where the mark was placed for the default toggle setting, I have had to move it about 6 inches. Is it reasonable to assume that the brake settings are also off by about the same distance?

No. Toggle settings, like brake settings, ought to be customized to each individual jumper. Short, fat jumpers, like me, will need the toggles further up the line to get the same effect (since we have shorter arms). I'd recommend doing some test jumps and setting your toggles for your arm length (and flying style).

...does not come finger trapped for the toggles.

Since you ought to move the toggles (shorten them) if you take them out of the keeper rings, it makes sense to use a knot, rather than a sewn loop. Personally, I find the knot method that Marty at Asylum showed me so much easier than sewn loops, that I'd use it even if I only wanted one toggle setting.

[BASE_689]

> The (old) "pull the toggles down to stall and mark" technique finds the DBS for an unvented canopy. Using this technique on a vented canopy can find a brake setting which results in opening backsurge ...

OK. Granted the above, and having nothing better than "DBS found through 'pull-the-toggles-down-to-stall-release-a-bit-and-mark'" technique, have we got a sort of "semi-rule"?
Sort of:
1) From mark done skydiving, move 2"-5cm shallower and that's your real DBS for your Vtec+vaslved parachute.
2) From mark done skydiving, move 3"-7.5cm shallower and that's your real DBS for your Vtec+vaslved parachute.
Because for slider up setup of brake settings, we go skydiving.
For slider off DBS we have no way to determine it "on a real jump", unless a serie of "trial and error" attempts.
Is the latter the only way we have got to determine our DBS for slider off?