Oh dear dDog

[ManBird]

...the time to do something about the Holocaust was before it became a holocaust, NOT AFTER. Talking about it now doesn't change anything, undo anything, bring back the millions of innocent people who died.

It helps us learn from our mistakes. While that may not really be relevant here, neither is the holocaust. I wouldn't compare Doug's actions to the holocaust, and I'm surprised that you have. I've noticed this trend in people to default to the Hitler and the holocaust whenever they're in any form of debate...

Here was my whole point: Ray and others have their reasons to be upset. While you all talk about "acceptance", you are refusing to accept Ray's point of view. You don't have to agree with it, but by your very own philosophies, you should honor it. I understand why some people on here think what they do, even if I don't agree with it. Can you say the same?

[rhondalea]

It helps us learn from our mistakes. While that may not really be relevant here, neither is the holocaust. I wouldn't compare Doug's actions to the holocaust, and I'm surprised that you have.

I didn't.

I was making a point about timing, not an analogy about Doug. (But there's another reason; see below.)

There were times in my past when I was angry with certain of my friends because they did not stand with me when I was injured, i.e., they did not don the suit of mail and go riding off to avenge my honor.

Do you see the ruptured logic in that idea? It's in the timing. The moment to take up one's lance is when it will do some good. After the fact, the reasonable person takes out a first aid kit.

I've noticed this trend in people to default to the Hitler and the holocaust whenever they're in any form of debate...

I keep forgetting that most of you guys aren't old 'netters. Sorry.

The Godwin's Law FAQ

Invoke it, Manbird. Please.

Here was my whole point:

Please don't think I don't understand you, Manbird. I've been you.

Ray and others have their reasons to be upset. While you all talk about "acceptance", you are refusing to accept Ray's point of view. You don't have to agree with it, but by your very own philosophies, you should honor it.

Ask Ray if he thinks I honor his point of view. More importantly, ask Ray if he thinks I honor him.

I understand why some people on here think what they do, even if I don't agree with it. Can you say the same?

Absolutely, unequivocally, yes.

Someday, you'll stop in DeLand, and I'll buy you a beer and you can ask me about my life and about the people I've struggled to forgive. But be sure to ask me also which is harder to do: to forgive or to be forgiven.

rl

[ManBird]

OK, you're weird. This conversation is getting more irrelevant with obscure philosophies than the Matrix.

Getting back on topic, if you haven't seen the latest update, Doug pled innocent, is set for trial on May 16, and will likely be held as he is considered a flight risk.

Adjourn for a couple months. Go outside and have some fun.



PS

Thank you, RL, for having all the answers to all of life's questions. I'd be lost without your superiority and wisdom.

[ManBird]

Let me acquaint you with Steve's law:

Clicky

[Tom Aiello]

Originally Posted by ManBird

Doug uses kind words to your face...

Dude. You need to read Doug's posts on the various fora. When I counted, I found that I'd removed more of his posts than anyone else's. Doug is many things. Afraid to tell you what he thinks is definitely not one of them.


For the record, Doug twice borrowed significant (for me, we're talking a thousand bucks or so) sums from me, and on both occasions repaid me promptly.

I'm not a base jumper, although I have some serious tendencies.

This message is for anybody out there that may even consider a risk like this.

I worked for Doug in 1998. I watched him inspire people that were already the genuine article. He was able to make you take it to another level, and he always gave you the credit you deserved. That is a rare person. I know I've pushed things in life and taken chances to succeed because of the things I learned from this guy.

My message: Don't get caught up in the mix. You're admired by somebody who's counting on you, no matter how bad it gets. Too all the haters, it's just money.

Here's to one of the good guys, I got your back Dougie Fresh.

Mike Brown
Portland, Or

[ManBird]

Originally Posted by Tom Aiello

Dude. You need to read Doug's posts on the various fora. When I counted, I found that I'd removed more of his posts than anyone else's. Doug is many things. Afraid to tell you what he thinks is definitely not one of them.

I don't consider a forum to be "to your face". I've met many people who were d1ckheads online, but totally mellow in person or on the phone. Depends on the forum, too. People tend to be themselves more over here. DZ.com causes a split personality disorder in a lot people.

Originally Posted by Tom Aiello

For the record, Doug twice borrowed significant (for me, we're talking a thousand bucks or so) sums from me, and on both occasions repaid me promptly.

Yeah, I'm just dropping it. We all have evidently had different experiences with and stories about Doug. Fo me, the shady outnumber the good. For others... not the case, and I can respect that.

[narcimund]

I haven't wanted to participate in this joyous roast of Doug's personality before, but it's sucking me in. Woe is me and my will power.

Originally Posted by ManBird

I don't consider a forum to be "to your face". I've met many people who were d1ckheads online, but totally mellow in person or on the phone. Depends on the forum, too. People tend to be themselves more over here. DZ.com causes a split personality disorder in a lot people.

After a couple of years of knowing Doug, I'd say his online and IRL personalities are remarkably similar. Among ABRASIVE personalities Doug is unusually consistent.

Originally Posted by ManBird

Yeah, I'm just dropping it. We all have evidently had different experiences with and stories about Doug. Fo me, the shady outnumber the good. For others... not the case, and I can respect that.

It would be instructive to know how much experience people have to support their opinions. I've known Doug for a couple of years, have personally loaned him money and have done (non-drug-related) business with him and with his telecom firms. All of the business was high risk/high gain and had the odd odor of shadiness.

While very little of the business turned out well, I can firmly say he's never cheated me. He's been a clumsy businessman, made poor choices, had terrible timing, and often ended up with egg on his face, but that's not the same. He's lousy at following up with commitments but (and this is a subtle point) not through maliciousness.

In fact, I'm somewhat of the opinion that people who feel they've been cheated may simply have participated in high risk situations without adequate understanding. It's ironic that base jumpers who would never consider blaming anyone but themselves for the outcome of a jump are so quick to blame someone when their poorly invested money disappears. Often times that's what investments do! Caveat emptor, right?

I'm not claiming that Doug never actually CHEATED someone out of money because that might have happened for all I know. But in every case I've heard of, it looks more to me like wanna-be get-rich-quick amateurs blindly jumping into a complicated transaction then blaming Doug when their ignorance, greed, or credulity caught them up.

Not everyone who does a little blow does so with an 8Ball and some strippers. Likewise, not everyone who does blow does so celebrating a good day of jumping with a little ooons-oonsa music.

Sometimes, the end user is the guy that will shoot you on the street for your shoes. Or maybe they'll just shoot up their workplace with an assault weapon. Something to think about before you start painting your "Free the Dog" signs. Tree, you should know this living in the Baltimore/Wash area.

Good news for Doug though, the judge agreed to throw out the 5 mph over the speed limit ticket!

[Raymond Losli]

Hey mr. Narcimund
You say that...That might have happened for all you know.. ?

Hey...I thought he cheated Raistlin out of his Fee for web-site design.
and has not fully Paid. ???
Does his past actions not directly affect you... ?
.
.

[narcimund]

Originally Posted by Raymond Losli

Hey mr. Narcimund
You say that...That might have happened for all you know.. ?

Hey...I thought he cheated Raistlin out of his Fee for web-site design.
and has not fully Paid. ???
Does his past actions not directly affect you... ?

Ray,

No, Doug did not cheat Raistlin, nor did he cheat me. I think I said that already.

Lots of people seek opportunities to be victims. I didn't expect to find it in the base community though. That always seemed to be the best quality of base jumpers.

[Raymond Losli]

Bullpucky ..that's what was told to me....Buddy
....

So... here we go.... People are walking around with money hanging out of their pockets....and
Looking to be taken advantage of... or looking to participate in .. Get Rich Scams.

We were Seeking to be cheated.

You have got to be joking with defending actions with that logic.
Don't trying to mask the actions of this guy with....
Irrelevant, Pseudo-Intellectual, Layers of Crap. ....Make it Simple

So....Call a -Spade a Spade- and quit making so many layers of this.

You don’t F##k over your friends... Why someone chooses to argue that is beyond me.

Doug's actions speak for themselves .... I wonder why he is in jail....
.
.

[Tree]

Hey Nick,

I don't think I quite said free the Dog. I said I hope he beats the rap, or does as well as he can. We ALL brek the law in one fashiopn or another, and I don't want to carry around the karma of hoping soemone else gets the full brunt of their actions when my day could come up too.

Is what he did more illegal than tresspassing? Well I guess thats up to each person to decide, but illegal is illegal, not immoral. Just like in BASE there are different levels of risk each of us will take, and this was so far off my scale I can't even see it. But it doesn't mean may of those posting here havin't been somewhere on that scale, even if it is just weigh something.

I may not agree with Dog on many things, but I can't root for Jonny Law on this one.

Cya.

[narcimund]

Originally Posted by Raymond Losli

Bullpucky ..that's what was told to me....Buddy....

It's very cute that you think you have better information about me and Raisltlin than I do. I can easily understand why you THINK Doug cheated us. In fact, some people DID cheat us but it wasn't Doug. This is more information than is necessary but it's kind of instructive to those who want to learn something about hearsay. Like the children's game of Telephone shows, information gets more fun, but it doesn't get more true when it's passed along.

Another instructive point: Neither Raistlin nor I blame Doug when other people cheat us. I also didn't blame the cliff when I flared badly and twisted an ankle.

Originally Posted by raymond losli

So... here we go.... People are walking around with money hanging out of their pockets....and
Looking to be taken advantage of... or looking to participate in .. Get Rich Scams.

I would never say that about any one individual because that would be rude. But it's certainly true in the big picture. People love hearing, "I know a great investment. It's a sure thing!" Look at Amway. Look at Herbalife. Look at the casinos and lotteries. They're JAMMED with people looking to be taken advantage of. Now compare those businesses with Ontus. Same thing.

Originally Posted by raymond losli

You have got to be joking with defending actions with that logic.
Don't trying to mask the actions of this guy with....
Irrelevant, Pseudo-Intellectual, Layers of Crap. ....Make it Simple

The great urge to make things simple often makes them wrong. As an example, you apparently simplified a story you heard from Raistlin. You might have heard "We have a client that Doug was once involved with but not any more... the client cheated us." But then you simplified the layers of crap until all you heard was "Doug ... cheated us". Some of those layers of crap were important. Doug wasn't involved in the cheating and in fact he came to our rescue afterwards when things went wrong.

Originally Posted by raymond losli

I wonder why he is in jail....

As I understand it, he's in jail for transporting controlled substances, not for base jumping without sufficient skydives, acting pompous, or offering friends unwise securities investments.

[ManBird]

Originally Posted by nick k

Not everyone who does a little blow does so with an 8Ball and some strippers. Likewise, not everyone who does blow does so celebrating a good day of jumping with a little ooons-oonsa music.

Sometimes, the end user is the guy that will shoot you on the street for your shoes. Or maybe they'll just shoot up their workplace with an assault weapon. Something to think about before you start painting your "Free the Dog" signs. Tree, you should know this living in the Baltimore/Wash area.

This is kinda what I was getting at much earlier on, but didn't really bring it up. It's one thing to party every now and then, but there are some real addicts out there with some serious issues that hurt others (friends, family, and less occassionally, strangers). One of the reasons why I've never been a fan of drug dealers. The times that I may or may not have acquired something or other, I always felt sketch around a dealer. They might be helping me and my friends party once in awhile, but they also are benefitting from the addiction, and inherit problems, of others. Sort of hard to explain.

Unless he was planning on getting set up in the states with his haul, I don't know that Doug was a "dealer" in this situation, per se. More like a UPS guy. We'll find out soon enough. As an aside, Baltimore is scary. Spent a week there. Sketch... TO THE X-TREME!

Originally Posted by nick k

Good news for Doug though, the judge agreed to throw out the 5 mph over the speed limit ticket!

Yeah, that'd be jacked, otherwise. I got pulled over doing 60 in a 30 last night, didn't have my current insurance on me (just renewed online), and I got off with two warnings! There'd be no justice if that ticket stood.